I believe we should be adding intersexed and transgendered as official tags… not removing other tags which others may self-identify their own creations as.
4 Likes
It’s worth noting (not that I don’t think anyone in the thread knows this, but I think it’s drifted) that we’re talking about tags, i.e. preferences here and not self-identification, which is in a freeform text field and people can express themselves how they want. (Within the limits of polite, respectful behavior, of course.)
Do we want to have positive/negative flags for every form of gender expression, I guess is the question. That’s thorny in itself, but not badly so.
1 Like
I’m very much against effectively telling herms, male-herms, dickgirls, cuntboys and shemales that they’re not supported/acknowledged by Wolfery if we were to take actions which remove/replace/exclude any tags they prefer to self identify as. I feel even more strongly about this since we have a number of characters already present on the site who identify as either these gender terms. Those users have used these terms intentionally instead of any other terms deemed more socially acceptable when identifying their characters (often characters which are persona rather than simply characters). I think that needs acknowledged when thinking about making changes to those gender tags since the replacements may not be sufficiently accurate as to the nature of the character aspects being sought with these tags.
If we wish to include additional (more socially acceptable) tags for people to choose to use on their own (without excluding people’s term of choice), then that’s a great solution. Inclusion without exclusion.
We should provide people with more options rather than a lack of options so they can find whatever it is they’re interested in for or want to be identified as.
In general, if a fairly known or searchable label theme/kink/gender/roleplay tag is missing and somebody makes a forum post in good faith asking for it, we should look to help with that, even if that tag isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.
1 Like
I’d like to look at the topic from the lens of pragmatism and define the goals we can agree on for the tags. The way I see it, there are three main sets of tags involved here that are in question: gender, body type and sex organs or lack thereof. Gender is the most variable, body type is probably more like sliders between a limited number of physical factors and sex organs are probably functionally identified with only a small handful of tags such as penis, vagina, both, neither or multiple. Individually, there’s already a big handful of these, but permuting them becomes immediately exhaustive and a minefield of warring opinions. Where possible, I think we should avoid using exclusively popularity or commonality to make our decisions and instead lean on functionality and remain goal-oriented. So here are the goals I can see affecting our choices…
Goal #1: No derogatory terms or slurs should likely be considered. I know every fringe of our decisions will be lined with disagreements on this, but once it extends past functionality and into opinion territory, custom tags become a necessary solution.
Goal #2: Create a useful and broad toolkit of terms for people to identify a wide range of interests, types and features.
Goal #3: Get users as close to expressing or identifying functional concepts as possible without causing issues. Tags should get users in the ballpark of their ideas, but are only meant to be signposts to point someone in the direction of what they’re interested in. We should recognize that wherever the threshold is, at some point due diligence transfers to the individual user to express who and what they are, and others to take interest and explore and inspect that to see if it meets or piques their interests.
These topics can very quickly become incendiary and emotions run high fast, especially with how contentious so much of this is made and becomes in real-life and public spaces where the implications and effects are far-reaching and complex. Here, we’re in a fantasy space where reality doesn’t need to hamper our expression and imagination. Sometimes, topics and terms will offend people, and to some extent that’s okay. We should certainly minimize that wherever possible, but also not at the cost of others’ freedom to be and express who and what they are and are interested in. Let’s make sure we look first to supporting each others’ good time, safety and comfort, and second only to worries that tie to real-world situations.
2 Likes
This is why arrghh is such a common tag. The tag system is incomplete. I brought it up to Acci, didn’t think removing tags would be so contentious when custom tags are for what the tag system doesn’t include. But now that they’re there, yeah. Probably shouldn’t be removed. +1 for intersexed and transgendered. Those seems clear language.
2 Likes
This thread ended up longer than I thought!
My thoughts, less regarding identity, more regarding tags on Wolfery:
- Tags have 2 purposes
- providing quick info about a character
- providing searchability (using the Filter in the Awake list)
- The tags are not for the character owner, but for the viewer of that character
- Having multiple tags for similar things defeats the purpose of searchability
So, tags with broader terms, possibly with custom description, is preferable to many narrow tags, in my opinion.
If a term used is generally considered an offensive slur, we should rename it to another word conveying the same meaning without the negative connotation; eg. shemales -> transgenders (or whatever we decide)
It should be more about ‘What tag should I add so that people I get a decent view of what I like/dislike’, and less about about self identification. We have About for that. Or custom tag description if you want to clarify what type of transgenders you look for.
e621 has the luxury of primarily having tags for searchability, which allows more detailed tags for similar things, without having to worry about becoming cluttered, preventing a ‘quick overview’.
Eh… Not sure if I am adding much now with this reply 
2 Likes
Solution 1: Add intersex(ed?)(es?) and transgender(ed)(s)? Keep shemale and herm and add additional tags as the people bring the issue up. Most people seem on board with this one.
Solution 2: Solution 1, but remove shemale and herm as they fall under intersex’s larger umbrella. More visibility, maybe less negative connotation. But, these are less slurs and it is a thorny area. Might not be a good look.
Solution 3: remove shemale, replace with gynomorph. Possibly add andromorph and maleherm. Also maybe mtf, ftm crossgender. As according to the e621 tagging guidelines that most people seems to agree with. Possibly pretty cluttered for tags, there is still a lot of contention and people don’t like to use these terms. But 8 gender preferences might not be the worst.
Solution 4: Solution 1, but we add cuntboy, dickgirl, possibly anything else. This might just be pure abuse to the tagging system.
2 Likes
Solution 3 is the one that I personally lean towards, with the caveat that as someone who mains a maleherm, if it would be too many tags, the maleherm tag isn’t completely necessary, herm + male and/or male + andromorph (without a no herms tag) are usually good enough indicators. I can’t speak for those who are or play transgender characters, but on this side of the tag list at least, it seems like a fair compromise if it feels too bloated.
2 Likes
The requisite Gordian solution suggestion at this point: Do we need positive/negative tags for every body type? If someone needs it badly enough they’ll custom tag, as others have said. Putting it in as a yes/no binary might even be inflammatory.
1 Like
I’m kind of questioning the origin of the offense of the terms herms and shemales; for this purpose, it might be helpful to pay attention to the points being made about the distinction between real life situations and created characters.
Intersex being a term for a real life genetic condition, as above, that I’ve heard referred to as “ambiguous genitalia” elsewhere, referring to it as “hermaphrodite” is inaccurate, and I can see offense being taken in that situation. I can definitely see “shemale” being taken as a slur in real life usage, as well.
But created characters aren’t limited by the boundaries of real-world biology, and these terms are capable of being accurate, and, in the case where someone chooses these terms to describe their character in good faith, can generally be inoffensive. To the terms hermaphrodite and shemale, some do indeed draw a distinction between these two terms, as well.
But anyway, long story short, I do like the notion of erring on the side of being inclusive of all the permutations, but if it turns out that people aren’t able to draw a distinction between the RL and fictional usages of these terms and just associate the offense to the word itself, rather than its context, the e621 guidelines (and their associated tags, such as “andromoph” and “gynomorph”) seem to be readable in a neutral enough tone to be supportable as default tags without triggering more sensitive people.
3 Likes
Solution 5: We just cut gender from tags? Maybe it really isn’t necessary. Liking this solution more. Maybe heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual might be more useful terms to tell if someone might be interested in you without directly addressing identities. (I know there are plenty more terms for this. But our goal here should just be a general toolkit.)
1 Like
Yeah. We need -something- to let people know they might be approaching a user whose orientation might be incompatible, and maybe the orientation tags are the way to go here.
1 Like
Maybe ‘penis’ ‘vagina’ and ‘boobs’ Might be the operative tags here. Combining these you can paint a nice picture of your preferences.
2 Likes
Call me old fashioned but I’m not sure I’m ready for the genitalia based abstraction as official tags. 
2 Likes
I vote we use arena combat to decide, with the tags printed on large picket signs. Last critter standing wins. >;P
2 Likes
This was mostly what I was leaning toward myself. Simply focus on general concepts which are not genders themselves and simply let people build their own picture with the paint provided: gynomorphs, andromorphs, gynandromorhs, breasts, dicks, vaginas. null. Probably one of the most accurate tools we could provide to people without sexualizing their gender identity directly. <:)
1 Like
I tend to use Gynomorph, for myself, but im not sure if that is a tag?
1 Like
Like we kind of came to the conclusion of, you can call yourself anything you wish. There’s no official tags for alternative forms in the preference system, but you can make custom tags in that too.
1 Like
Late response but as a trans person, I’d rather ‘herm’ and ‘cuntboy’ stuff not be labeled as transgender unless the character is specifically trans. I don’t have a problem with those terms being used for fictional characters that haven’t transitioned and were born like that, or trans people calling themselves it if they prefer, but being trans isn’t just having genitals that don’t match your appearance. Often it involves gender dysphoria, so it’s not that simple imo. And some trans people will end up getting bottom surgery (surgically changing their genitals to match their actual gender)
3 Likes
There’s no cross-tagging like that, so I don’t think that’s a problem at all.
3 Likes