Wolfery has a problem - what you can do about it

That’s okay I really like the notion that people are supposed to not be held to the rules just because they had an emotional moment. What part of giving people a warning and advisement to handle themselves better do you think is unreasonable handling by moderators? I’m sorry but somebody perceiving a transgression against them does not give them a free pass to do whatever the hell they want on somebody else’s site which has a code of conduct in upheld by volunteer staff.

If you’re going to practice selective reading in order to cherry pick in order to make a point about somebody then you might want to take a step back and not be involved like you were initially inclined.

The entire point of having moderation team on hand is specifically to look over situations to make sure that they are kept in context and honest while they’re being dealt with. Somebody being dishonest about a situation they’re reporting is not something that should be tolerated.

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No. This place is adults only, so please act like an adult.

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You should probably direct your reply to somebody in order to avoid miscommunication.

(Who am I talking to? Nobody knows)

Even though you apply the “no u” argument, I still want to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your example isn’t relevant. You aren’t kids supervised by adults. You are standing a trial in front of a judge. If you don’t like the verdict, you can appeal. In many counties that means that another judge at the same court will consider your case. If you are still not happy, you can appeal to a higher court. I think that is very much what @maximus’s suggestion was.

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This goes from “Some actions by the moderation team need looking into” to “No one on the moderation team can be trusted” pretty darn fast, from the sound of it.
We have official reporting systems that produce verified, signed logs of actions on the game. Producing evidence of misconduct is trivial for first parties involved in such, and if they want to report that, it’s on a record moderators can’t alter.

The moderation team is a diverse group of people. We talk over matters on just about every major decision we make, and they get weighed well before actions are taken. If you do not believe a group of 8+ people does not have a single trustworthy member in it, nothing we say or do will alleviate that distrust.

If someone has an issue they feel they can’t bring to the moderation team through reports, then Accipiter is who’s left to contact about it. But loose allegations without an actual specific incident to refer to is just hot air, and posting about it on the forums - like Moz has been doing above - is just stirring trouble without receipts.

I, for one, want to do the job I’ve been given well. Key to that effort is that when I do something, I act on verifiable, proven information. Not hearsay or third party accounting. Can we get things wrong? Absolutely. Our decisions are only as good as the information we have. But if we do, and we get new information that shows we got something wrong? We fix it. That’s how it works, in every part of the world; justice systems, corporate, customer support, friendships - you name it. No one gets everything right all the time. If you expect that, we can’t give it to you.

But if someone wants to point fingers at the moderation team for having done something wrong, they should come forward with the actual case in question. An ephemeral pointing to ‘general attitude’ isn’t going to cut it. If you think we’ve done something wrong, point to the specific thing. That’s not a hard ask.

Again, please be specific. In which instances do you feel there has been matters brought up that haven’t been addressed sufficiently?

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I believe @Kelmi’s argument in Post #24, is bang on a perfect argument here, Shinyuu, and that your response was in bad faith.

Like it or not, authority and subordination is near-perfectly aligned with the teacher and student/child parable.

Moderation is a position of authority, and we, the common folk, are to sit and listen to what they say. We are acting like adults, in that we’re all mature enough to listen, however, we have the freedom (and experience) to speak up when we feel wronged. And when another staff member acts in a way that feels like covering ( the other teacher saying ‘Surely a responsible adult wouldn’t do that’), it sure seems like a ‘Sit down, shut up, and accept the subjugation’ moment, does it not?

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It’s not my place to report issues a friend has had without talking to them first, and having their personal consent for me to fight on their behalf.

However, with the most recent incident:

I check the forum before bed, to see that they’ve engaged on the forum discussing several recent changes to the site, updates that have affected them, and personal beliefs for where they want to see the service move towards. All written more or less respectfully, approximately to the same point this thread has been.

I wake up to the same thread being a shadow of it’s former self, nearly all of my friend’s comments deleted, and a discord message stating ‘Mods deleted my posts without any discussion or reply, and banned me flat out.’

With the context I’ve been given (Since, y’know, mods deleted all the posts so we the people can’t see why y’all took the posts down), it feels like a brutalistic “Yeah, we’re going this way. Don’t agree? Fuck off the forums for a month, we’ll see if you accept our way when you come back.” rather than a polite “Look, we took this direction because x, y, z. Understanding your complaints…”

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I don’t think the power dynamic of that example applies. The teacher’s primary job is to make sure the child is getting educated. The secondary job is to check on their wellbeing.

Mods don’t check in on your wellbeing, they are here to make sure Wolfery functions as a whole. There’s more obligation to the general populace than individuals.

I honestly don’t understand why we are arguing words, though. It’s irrelevant which example is better. I think I’ve seen enough statements where an active moderator had put a call to report issues for further review. You commented on a “recent incident” without any useful detail, and, unless you also PMed one of the mods a link to the thread in question or the user name of the person affected, it is once again, futile. If I were on the mod team I’d tell you, that’s not enough details. I don’t think mods keep a speadsheet of removed comments with the reasons (or maybe they do?).

All I see here is hearsay, sorry. It feels like an attempt at populism where you inherently want to present the staff as the bad faith actors to the general populace to… what exactly? What is your endgame? You want more transparency in moderation? You could ask for that. Mind that it comes with lesser privacy, something which Acci seems as a core tenet. Is it fair that some users will see less privacy because their chat logs would have to be public for you to come to an educated decision same as moderators? Should you also be able to verify other characters’ alts to know mods didn’t do anything wrong when acting on ban evasion? How do you see solving the problem?

I believe I made it clear in my first post in this thread:

I believe most of us can agree, if we’re on this site, we should be mature, half-assed intelligent, and hopefully kind individuals. We should be given a chance to see the behaviour of others, rather than having it swept behind the curtain as a ‘Meh, ignore them.’

When this happens to someone we consider a friend, should we be expected to go ‘Eh, yeah, you probably were just a shitbird’ and accept moderation’s views, or should we have a chance to take a look for ourselves, perhaps even being able to go ‘Oh, wow, you are a shitbird, and here’s why:’

Gossip and infighting are the two biggest killers of any kind of social or social-esque groups. And as cliquey as Wolfery can get, there is a social aspect to a roleplay platform. Frankly, I don’t want to see this place fail in the next ten years. I like it here.

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On one hand, yes, I agree with you. But then, only to some extent.

This forum is public to the whole internet. I very much think that removing stuffs that go against the rules and the policies is warranted. I remove all the weird comments people leave on my blog. I prefer that my readers don’t see the bizzare stuffs from the other commenters.

The moderation decisions on wolfery? You know, when “big companies” ban you, they never tell you why specifically other than referring to your breaking the rules. It’s mostly because the various liabilities of doing so as opposed to “we can terminate your contract at any time”. I think wolfery mods are clearly doing better in that regard because you have an easy way to appeal.

If my friend was banned, and I listened to their story and also deemed it an unfair ban, I’d ask them if they appealed to a different mod. I’d also wonder if I’m biased for only hearing out the story from my friend’s perspective – the staff will most surely have input from everyone involved. Nothing from my previous interaction with mods says they are biased.

I’ll even throw in some anecdotal data where I acted on behalf of my friend and reached out to a mod in regards to a seeming issue. The mod in question said that this behaviour may or may not be problematic and pointed out that my friend has to file a formal ticket with logs for the team to review it proper. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t expect me to forge screenshots, but they would still not take that as a reputable information, y’know?

We all have unconscious biases where a friend’s word is worth more than a stranger’s. Or ten strangers’. But when you sit down and think it through, you might figure out that there’s very little gain from abusing a mod’s position in here and literally everything to lose if you’re caught. It’s just not worth it.

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As I have mentioned before, this is not a public court. Moderation does not happen by popular vote. Some content is against the rules. If it is, it gets removed. If that user disagrees with the decision, they have the ability to appeal.

This should not be a hard concept to understand. It is the standard of any moderated social media out there. If you post things that violate policy, be it on Facebook, Reddit, newspaper comment fields or any other moderated forum, it’s going to get deleted.

Why do you feel we should adhere to some kind of ‘stricter standard of publicness’ because someone might disagree with whether a post or topic is over the line?

To be clear, when I said “contact me”, I mean in DMs. Not as a public forum thread. In this case the content is vague enough that it can stand (I think - other moderators might disagree with me and yeet this), but please keep further specifics in DMs.

That is in fact that dynamic of being a user in somebody else’s playground. Your only power in the situation is to vote with attendance since your attendance is not mandatory by any other group which has authority over you - in that way you can take power back for yourself. A user in that situation has no entitlements to basically anything - but in a good situation, the code of conduct for that service is applied in a balanced way.

Simply put, somebody ‘feeling’ wronged does not mean that they’re using much in the way of logic to understand the rules. I could ‘feel’ any way I want about any situation going on. If somebody’s actions along with their ‘stated feelings’ are misaligned heavily - its going to catch somebody’s attention because it comes across as suspicious… especially when that some person has done something that they’re trying to obscure in addition to that misaligned action/communication, and that cover-up is discovered after the fact.

Somebody ignoring their own conduct while pointing fingers outward exclusively is likely to ‘feel’ that they’re being attacked more often than not the moment anybody suggests that they’ve done something wrong - regardless of logic or reason.

People are prone to miscommunication. A lot of it. Most people are not cut out for moderation because they lack the patience to put themselves in other people’s shoes in order to better understand why others are interacting with them the way they are - or they’re choosing not to communicate because they feel entitled not to, and thus even more opportunity for miscommunication, even as they ‘feel’ like they’re being attacked. People who lack the ability to consider other people’s motives in good faith and patience will often miss the obvious and assume the worst, and then use that as justification to ‘do whatever they want because of how they feel.’

Watched this sort of thing play out again and again and again and again… and again… and again… This isn’t something that young adults have figured out by default - its a struggle for most people to gain enough patience and introspection to understand how to be composed… and then perspective to glean insight into the possible (not certain) motives that others may have… and then you have to figure out non-aggressive ways of approaching people who may not be inclined to even bother listening to you - because they may just be automatically assuming you’re hostile and thus will aggressively transgress against you for even trying to approach. It’s a whole lot of fun - wouldn’t ya say?

So, yes. Moderators have the keys because they are people better than most at basic communication and using patience and willpower to stick to a guiding code of policy and conduct - and to try to encourage people to adhere to it either through diplomacy or force as circumstances arise for both types of leverage. The site owner prefers diplomacy and so the moderation team leans that direction as much as possible - but they’ve also been instructed not to put up with people’s crap if they’re clearly not pulling their weight in the social interaction.

And then on top of all of that, they get people who lack perspective quick to jump forward and crap right on the doormat - because they ‘feel’ more than they ‘think’.

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Y’know, you get back what you put in. :slight_smile:

As a follow up, the team has been investigating the incidents alluded to above in exacting detail over the past couple days. We take due diligence very seriously. As the claims regarding former staff have been outlined and thoroughly discussed by the relevant parties themselves, it suffices to say that the positions are far from as universally critical as originally indicated, and highlight the delicate balancing act which must be enacted here.

The additional, more private matters on which non-staff users are involved and, for good reason are protected by their general rights to privacy and those rights which as assigned as principles for Wolfery’s management, are also under investigation.

Though little direct identifying information is available in full public here, and rightfully so, 1) We have access to additional corroborating evidence from which the incidents in question can be identified, and 2) some parties have come forth with further information which securely confirms the prior deductions.

First:

Absence of context on the part of those who reporting in this thread does account for some of the confusion. And unfortunately, this absence of context does, in several cases, create an ambiguity in which without that context, based on public information, our actions can appear arbitrary. This is because it is woefully immoral to reveal the most important factors in our most important decisions. We will not be opening up personal, private, secure information for public review. In point of sober fact, doing so in some of these cases is vastly worse than the purported arbitrariness of moderation power use. To wit: explaining exactly why these specific decisions are made would be ethically inferior to actually making the decisions arbitrarily. This is one of the extremely rare cases where even the extreme hypothetical ‘what-aboutism’ still makes the decision cut and dry.

We will not be making our direct evaluation process open to public evaluation.

If this is an unacceptable level of opaqueness in the application of authority to a user, we acknowledge that that is an entirely valid perspective to have. We also, regretfully, must state that the implication is that that user’s principles are fundamentally incompatible with Wolfery. As I mentioned before, any community must make prioritization on principles. It can not, and will not, be for everyone. As Vernon mentions, it is healthy to diversify your community investment for this very reason.

Second:

In our review of these incidents, it has come to light that several of the purported facts and occurrences cited as evidence of misconduct on the part of the moderation team: silencing of dissent, arbitrariness of judgement, and abuse of power; are unavoidably fictitious. In at least three of the cases which have been brought for direct evaluation at this point, we can identify explicit, technical, non-witness based evidence which directly and summarily contradicts statements by the parties in question.

Though we all have a tendency, reasonably, to invest more trust in those with whom we are familiar, it is a sad and unavoidable fact that our friends can lie to us, too. As much as it is discomfiting to realize, the words of those we are friends with, especially across the medium of the internet, are ultimately hearsay. We would all like to think that those we are close to would not report falsehoods to us, but it happens. Whether overt and knowing deception, biased reports which favor them, or even incidental misinformation, it happens.

This is why, as frustrating as it can be for users, we know, we do not make decisions based on direct claims. We rely on reports, logs, and technical forensic tools, such as we have available. And in this case, it is clear that some of you have been lied to- in a few instances quite dramatically. To those of you that have, I am sincerely sorry, but pursuant to the first point we will not be meaningfully able to provide you with closure or satisfaction regarding these lies. I would caution everyone reading this to understand that doing the due diligence to understand all sides of a story, to trust, but verify, is a best practice for all relationships- especially those conducted over the internet.

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Regarding sprawl, in short, there’s a good and bad way to build. I can agree on your sentiment that the ratio of users to rooms is extremely high, but it’s not always about the number; it’s about how they’re connected.

Having built for decades on various MUCKs, I can say room-building in a balanced way is key to making things work. Every room is a social space, and things that happen in one room separate people completely from what is happening in the next. Each space should have a purpose for being separate. Cutting down on cross-chatter is one reason. Spatial orientation is the other.

When someone builds a house, they tend to make each room separate, even though the number of people in each room is going to be Zero other than yourself and whoever guest you have in your home. To me, that’s overkill, so I stopped doing it a long time ago.

An analogy can be drawn from movie sets and theme parks. Disneyland in particular, was masterfully built. The size of New Orleans Square, for example, although extremely small, gives a sense of larger spacial orientation by the nooks and crannies that were built, the angle of the streets and scale of the facades.

I take this analogy and apply it to building. If a room description can’t handle spacial orientation, and instead the builder depends on making endless rooms (social spaces) to make that orientation work, it’s going to end up being a bad place to be. It would be like an empty Disney parking lot with no one around, and just you roaming around with nothing to do.

So, really, it comes down to taking these things into consideration when a MUCK or Mucklet allows people to build public spaces. On average I see 40-50 people hanging out in Sinder, and maybe 1-4 people hanging out elsewhere. That means everyone’s going to just come to Sinder Park Square—a single room—and hang out there where everyone else is, to meet people. That means the rest of Wolfery is essentially going to be a ghost town. That’s how LayLeaux Town is. That’s how practically every other MUCK I know is. There are plenty of really neat places to go on Tapestries… but no one is there. It’s almost surprising when you actually DO run into someone in one of those rooms, almost like, “Oh! Uh … hi! Signs of life! Uh… okay, what do we do now?!” lol

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Aren’t those saved in the client somewhere? Just like mails? I’d honestly think reading your sent mails would be more useful than sent reports because people surely must send more mails.

Here’s a good thing – you don’t have to hang out in other places. Although people do. About half of the active population is outside Sinder every day. If you take out the outlier which is the Vaell Shrine in the valley, then still, the third of the populaton is outside Sinder.

But Wolfery isn’t about just hanging out. I see it more as a shared work of art, really. Consider the Empyrean Blaze Shrine in the Sacred Valley. You can’t even get inside without solving a puzzle! It’s clearly not designed as a place to hang around. Would you really tell me that all the charming writing and all the fox statues inside are useless, then? That they serve no purpose?

What about Nox Aeterna and Eisenhorn? Both are sparsely visited, both have lots of runaway rooms that aren’t useful for navigation. Both tell amazing stories of their worlds.

Every remote part of the Rift is rich with someone’s unique perspective, with little breadcrumbs of awesome lore. Wolfery isn’t an IRC, or a f-list chat. It’s a place where you are part of the story.

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That’s all great, but here’s the current user distribution:

50 percent of everyone on the Mucklet is hanging out in a single room. If I go anywhere else, I’m all alone. Art or not, if there aren’t furs there, I’m just playing solitaire with the art.

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I already corrected it.