Elements of style

[Shinyuu]

I’m on a storytelling spree today, and it got me thinking.

Many rooms address the characeter using second person (you ...). It’s both ergonomic and intimate. Indeed, without knowing the character’s name and pronouns, it’s hard to be individual, and the repeated they makes the writing distant. You is warm and cosy.

The issue is that mucklet forces the third person perspective onto you everywhere else (especially in the travel messages). I wonder if we could unify that and make the whole experience better.

What I’m thinking is that all messages seen by several characters are third person (as they are now), but all the messages that are intended exclusively for a single charachter could be rewritten in second person POV. Instead of Shinyuu heads to the Sinder Park it would be You head to the Sinder Park. It’s immediately closer and more personal.

Of course, there will still be a mix of third- and second-person POV in emotes written by people, but that’s expected. What I am concerned is the core, experience, things that you see while travelling solo.

I spot-checked a couple MU*s, and it looks like they share the same idea. Here’s “one of the oldest DIKUMUDs”:

Doing this will require a rewrite of pretty much every single travel message, but it’s not extremely bothersome if we only consider the public world. It’s something that can be reliably done in a couple days tops.

[WakuWaku]

While I do think this is the correct style for travel messages and would like to see things formatted this way. I don’t think it is possible with how exits currently work. It currently prefixes everything with [Name]. So ‘You head to Sinder Park’ would appear as ‘Shinyuu You head to Sinder Park’

Edit: That said, this is a relic from text adventure days. Where player action is consistently addressed in second person. I’m not going to start writing in second person so it just would look odd on readback from log.

[Shinyuu]

Yeah, I know. But Acci could surely change that bit for the messages!

[Accipiter]

I would agree that first person messages (“You head to the Park”) sounds more personal, and provides a better sense of presence.

But the game is inherently third-person bound, since first-person style requires different messages for different targets. Only pre-written messages (such as travel message) can fulfil that requirement - or say (which can get be wrapped in a first-person style “You say, …”). So, yes. A mix would be the result.

Games like DIKUMUD and other MUDs using first-person style solves it by having all messages pre-written, even for poses/emotes (see Lusternia MUD - Emotions), sacrificing free posing.

But… mixing? Won’t it feel off? Won’t it encouraging first-person writing in public places?

[Shinyuu]

@Accipiter

Games like DIKUMUD

They actually use the mix of second- and third-person POV, though, no? Second-person when targeting the character and third-person for all other interactions.

[Accipiter]

Ah. Yes, I mean “second-person” (you), not first (I). My mistake.
But do they use third-person (Accipiter)?

My sense is that they only use second. Of course, if Bea flirts with Cesar, Acci would see it as:

Bea flirts with Cesar.

But it is still written as if You (Acci) see this.

[Shinyuu]

They do indeed use second person. But we do, too. In many nay room descriptions we uase second person already, becasue using third person in there is extremely clunky.

That’s my point – why don’t we move to using second person where Acci would see it? Specifically in regards to room descriptions and exit messages that Acci sees.

[WakuWaku]

I do retract my support for this. I think the mixing of tense is bad on readback. I’m not going to start writing in second/first person.

It is nice for things like descriptions that don’t explicitly go in the log and aren’t part of the ‘story’

[Tlancaalek]

If I read this right, this is how Fuzzball, FurryMuck et. al., do this. One message is shown to the user themselves in second person, and the other is shown to everyone else.

One example would be success and osuccess messages (sent when someone succeeds in using an object, such as an exit).

[Scarlet_Himari]

Mate, I have RPed in 3rd person just so I can try to chuck out details.

[Shinyuu]

I think those have a generally more varied set of commands (e.g. sneeze would be a command that has different messages for you and the observers).

I don’t expect anyone to start posing in second person; that doesn’t make any sense (unless it’s a one on one interaction, I guess?). Everyone should be free to write loses in third person as they do now.

I don’t expect anyone to go and change the room descriptions either. What I’m arguing for in here is a better world immersion. The world writing could be more coherent and for that it needs to be stronger. A second person POV is generally stronger and more personal. I think workarounds in room descriptions (such as “The lantern could be seen on the table”) generally make the readability worse. So why don’t we embrace the second person in rooms (where it is only shown to you, the reader) and travel messages (ditto). Is perspective shifting strange? Yeah. But we already have it all over the place.

[the-floof]

@Accipiter

“You say, …”

Noooooo… I don’t like that. In my D&D story-development style of roleplay, this would stick out like a sore thumb to me, especially if second-person was employed in poses.
Please don’t change the pose message!!! (I hardly use say anyway, so I would simply boycott say if you were to change it, no biggie.)
Most people have a third-person description thing going on in poses, and I for one do things like this, messing with the automatic quote marks of the say command:

Flame says, “Hello.” He scratches his ear. “How you been?”

It would look rather strange if this were to be changed to

You say, “Hello.” He scratches his ear. “How you been?”

It would look like a regular/third-person pose/say to others in the room, but it would be extremely annoying for me.

Can we just have the exits alone use second person, and nothing else?
There’s virtually no reason to change others, although I support second-person exit messages for a more intimate style, like Shinyuu said.

[Shinyuu]

@the-floof

Can we just have the exits alone use second person, and nothing else?

Again, that’s what I’m advocating for~

[the-floof]

Travel messages and (whoever wants to change them) room descriptions, yes. Anything else, no thanks.
Settled?