Ageplay Age Restrictions

21

Apologies for not being more specific, and thanks for explaining that a therapist would not recommend this as it includes a public other. I do know, from talking with CSA victims, that fiction, roleplay, and art are recommended outlets

Wouldn’t usually make any addendum or further derail a topic, but just because this is almost the same dangerous misinformation again: this mistakes the reasoning and generalizes again to the point of potential harm. General ‘you’ throughout, once again.

Let me give an analogy here to help illustrate the principles (and we can help subtly destigmatize through comparison, how about that!): imagine you have broken both your legs in a soccer accident. You reach the stage where you can stand again and have regained some mobility, but still feel diminished and vulnerable in everyday life. Walking and running is often difficult, and you have regular moments of weakness or imbalance. Upon reading the advice online that doctors say ‘sport is a recommended outlet’, you decide that sounded vaguely right and sounded like it could help, you liked it before and other people say it’s great - and so you desperately join the first fast-paced and aggressive game of soccer you can find with athletic players you have never met.

That instinctive reaction you just had was a signal. Intellectualizing it, we can see the potential for the activity to re-harm, in this particular example - and even if it all worked out for one little game, we can see more potential hazards and further risk of setting recovery back in what that approach can normalize for oneself or observers. It can set a precedent that repeats risk, or even introduce it in other cases when you excitedly share stories with your recovery group about how the first game went okay, you felt like yourself again, so there’s probably nothing for anyone to worry about…

A responsible doctor or mental health professional makes their recommendations for unsupervised or ancillary activity specifically, with awareness for the context of injury, duration and intensity of harm, the treatment plan, the desired outcomes, the potential risks. Repeating ‘doctors/therapists recommend X for Y’ can sometimes be broadly correct – but is often irresponsible and potentially harmful to leave solely at that generality.

So - for anyone still reading who needs to hear this - ‘recommended outlets’ should be the ones you arrive at together with your mental health professional as their recommendation for you. Please don’t just take the word of anyone on the internet, no matter who they cite as saying it, that ‘roleplay’ is some kind of blanket recommendation and so dive into your traumatic material on a platform like this with all the potential risks and variables involved. I’ll also leave off dissection of ‘art’ as misleadingly broad, but there’s one quick note I should make: it just can’t be considered an outlet that is a substitute for actual therapy or treatment.

Back to the topic at hand. Sorry to derail further. :slightly_smiling_face: But this might be an important note here for someone, someday – especially considering the context of the rest of the thread.

22

And in other news, websites that have British users will now have to comply with British law to prevent CSAM, so unless Accipiter wants to ban all British users, or find he’s under investigation he may want to consider this point.

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23

It could be said that, on Wolfery, ageplay is… Ageplay. Adults (the players) are playing as kid characters.
The extremity of the age can vary a lot.

Maybe there could be an “Ageplayer” tag which people can block in order to hide underage (under 18 or 16 y/o) characters. More on that later.

I play a kitten or two, and I support having a safe space here on Wolfery for ageplayers like there is for other extreme kinks (nonconsensual in Umber Point, worse things in the Black Market, etc.).

I’m not going to discuss trauma too much due to it being a delicate topic, but I care a lot about victims and survivors. We need to be mindful of all players and hopefully make this a better space for everyone.

Lamplight should stay! It’s my favorite area. There are sufficient warnings when one is going there via the train lines which say that that area is ageplay-focused. So people can avoid it if they wish.

But we should take into account the comfort of others. I support the notion of no NSFW images of underage characters; those can easily be linked in an outside gallery and not uploaded as an in-site avatar; such as F-list galleries. As long as the player provides a warning that the gallery contains ageplay content.

Another point: If your About page doesn’t list anything about your kinks, how will people know what you like?
But, that could be solved by an option to hide players who have certain tags set to “dislike”, without censoring About pages.

So, here is my idea.

There should be a new category of tags, maybe in a distinctive color (like yellow or light blue, to match the site’s colors), for “Preferences (Extreme)”. Such as ageplay, bathroom play types, incest types, nonconsensual, death/snuff, ferals, gore and hard vore; et cetera.

And if a player has these tags set to “dislike”, then characters who have the tag set to “like” will be hidden. Preferably with an option to toggle that blacklisting on & off in settings, if the dislike is a character-specific thing and you have an extreme-content character on the same account.

Finally, characters with these tags could be automatically hidden until you have that tag set to “like” on at least one of your characters. Then you would be able to see others with the tags.

Open to criticism.

Hey, mods - should I make a separate topic about this idea?

~

There’s a lot of things on this site that people are not comfortable with. That will always be the case with NSFW roleplay platforms. But ageplay does need extra attention.

TL;DR:

  • This type of ageplay probably isn’t illegal. However, I am not a law student, so I will leave that issue to Accipiter and the mods.
  • There should be Extreme Content tags which people can set to “dislike” in order to hide extreme-content focused characters.
  • I support ageplay here, as long as it is safe and kept to respective areas.
  • Lamplight should stay as it is - a specific place for ageplay, which it already is.
  • NSFW ageplay images can easily be linked as an outside gallery, at least with sufficient warnings, rather than set as a profile image.
  • New category of “Extreme Content” tags which can be optionally blacklisted if set to “dislike”.

I just hope ageplay will not be banned completely. Where will good-faith ageplayers go then?
I agree with GreenReaper. This is meant to be a platform for exploring this type of thing.

Sorry for the long post, I tried to do smallish paragraphs :U

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24

To be clear, this should already be the case thanks to the policy update a few months ago, but AFAIK there was no notice to existing users unless you were logged in at the time or dropped by the forum, so I still have to remind the occasional player from time to time.

As for the wider issue, there’s a (sort of, actually not) simple solution: turn top-level areas into realms* linked by fast transit (or alt. profiles per realm?), ideally retaining the top-level realm activity list, restricting Awake to the current realm (unless switching to ‘global’?).

That way, if you don’t go to Lamplight, you don’t get squicked by the cubs there; don’t go to Umber, don’t get spooked by gangsters; don’t go to Ravenholm, don’t see icky zombies; etc. (Also, the list is more manageable and you don’t walk about wondering why you can’t find X.)

It could be enough for some just to area-filter Awake, albeit this would result in less isolation of ‘extreme’ content to standalone data stores/domains.

Even easier should be ‘tag blocking’, as it can already be done for Awake with the filter system - but I doubt people want !ageplay there all the time to remind them, hence the need for a separate list that could come with helpful suggestions to add.

I recommend this be done ASAP, as it may solve or ameliorate the issues some seem to face, while not putting any onus on other players who happen to be using the same service for their own enjoyment, and who aren’t to blame for others’ reaction to their very existence.

(*The linked post expresses a desire not to split Wolfery’s community, and this could be a way to do realms while still making it feasible to ‘sell’ the idea to furry members, e.g. those seeking to create an [official?] implementation of Chakona Space or Hayven Celestia.)

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25

Something I want to reiterate because it keeps coming up:

My problem with VCSAM (ageplay) is not about legality. All of my feelings and arguments around VCSAM are only about the effects that it has on people and communities. Not about whether or not it is legal. Lots of things are legal or illegal that should or shouldn’t be, like huffing air duster or walking across the street.

I am saying directly that VCSAM is likely to be straight up harmful and there’s data about it, that’s why I named a literature review instead of saying that I just feel bad about it. I want people to look at the scientific data, not argue about whether or not it’s legally dubious. I don’t care about the legality. I only care about whether or not it hurts people. My life profession revolves around researching and studying psychological phenomenon and that’s the approach I take for this. I have bias because I’m a CSA victim/survivor so I point to actual research instead of saying inflammatory things.

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26

What hurts the most is gaslighting ageplayers by trying to turf them out of a community which for now at least tolerates them, while simultaneously telling them that it’s for their own good (or alternatively, for the benefit of a) their potential future victims (?!), or b) those who aren’t willing to grant the same tolerance extended to them in their use of said service).

This based off a qualitative analysis of news reports of suspected and guilty-plea offenders (none of whose charges are said to involve fictional non-human characters, and over two-thirds of which also involved real-life content), that takes the supposed harm as axiomatic and looks for evidence of agreement from authority figures in justice and law enforcement. Who are in large part responsible for making cartoons illegal in the UK, after the police confiscated some manga and then were told they had to give it back, since it wasn’t illegal.

The whole thing is full of circular argument - news reports on people suggesting a potential for escalation that somehow confirms researchers hypothesizing the same thing. Yes, you can call it ‘data’, but it’s not a quantitative study designed to determine whether or not there is escalation from virtual to real-life material (or de-escalation, for that matter), let alone actual acts - it’s focused on reported criminals, and most discussion of harm relates to content which not only isn’t allowed here, it’s not allowed anywhere.

So yes. I looked at the paper you referenced. I don’t think much of it, at least in relation to this particular argument. Naturally, I have my own bias; I encourage others to read it as well, and draw their own conclusions.

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27

Wait, are all cartoons really illegal in the UK?

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If they consist of a prohibited image of a child. (But note that a child is defined in sec. 65 (5) as “a person under the age of 18”, and courts have been reluctant to declare non-humans to be people.)

Potentially other cartoons are illegal, such as those depicting grievous bodily harm, but the law above is the one most relevant to the topic.

29

Oh yes, by all means ban that horrible ageplay. And while you’re at it, you should ban non-con, because that’s rape and rape is illegal too. And while you’re at it, ban ferals because that’s bestiality. Ban Snuff because that’s murder.

No?

Look, in all seriousness, I understand that ageplay is something that most people don’t like and for very good reasons. That’s why it’s considered ‘extreme roleplay’ and (at least when sexualized) isn’t allowed in most areas.

But lets look back at the other examples I gave of extreme roleplay I mentioned above.

Non-con isn’t rape, it requires ooc consent and no real person is harmed because two consenting adults choose to engage in this RP.

Feral isn’t bestiality because no real animal is harmed because two consenting adults choose to engage in this RP.

Snuff (in a text based environment like this) isn’t murder because no real person is harmed because two consenting adults choose to engage in this RP.

And yes, you guessed it, the same is true of ageplay. Ageplay isn’t pedophilia because no real child is hurt because two consenting adults choose to engage in this RP.

Oh, I hear you already. “But that’s not true… yadayada…” You are aware that ageplayers would be the first to grab pitchforks and torches if they found out someone was engaging in pedophilia, right? No, you weren’t aware? Well now you know.

No one who is underage in real life is allowed on wolfery. So text exchanged between two people on here does not involve an actual child.

If anything, I do wish that images were better regulated. perhaps an in game mail sent to everyone (Seeing as how GreenReaper said they’re unaware of existing users being notified up the policy update) letting everyone know this isn’t allowed, and then after a week or so (so existing users have a change to see the message and make the change) and then implementing a means of reporting an image. I’ve seen far too many of these images and I do feel that crosses a line.

With that said, the rules are what they are, people have spoken on both sides now. Lets the admins/mods make a decision on the matter.

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30

One the biggest challenges in researching VCSAM and people who consume it is that they are resistant to study. They don’t want to be studied and they conceal themselves. Because of that, we have to use qualitative analysis of the data and resources we do have in order to build frameworks that inform further studies. Qualitative studies are often preliminary.

The same researchers also did a meta-analysis of the psychological impact of VCSAM by first using known data on the effects CSAM in communities and individuals. This includes how cognitive distortions occur in people who view CSAM (which is real pictures/media) and then comparing that to the small amount of data we have on people who consume VCSAM. This might not satisfy you and it’s not really meant to, it’s foundational research.

That aside, Those news articles weren’t all about potential for escalation. They included quotes and information from actual offenders who expressed concern that they were affected by VCSAM and how it was used. Just because something is qualitative, it doesn’t mean it’s not including actual information.

Also, just for the record, I’m not here to call you a bad person, or a criminal, or anything like that. I’m talking about what I know which includes my lived personal experiences. VCSAM was used to groom me when I was a child, so I know from firsthand experience that it’s not a harmless thing even when people are not directly harmed by its creation.

It’s really hard to talk about that though and I’m sure you don’t really want to hear about all of that in detail because it’s really awful. Please understand my point of view and why it’s so important to me.

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32

Well, that does bring up the interesting question of canonical vs actual age…if someone has no age information what is stopping someone from saying they are x age but they are actually y age? What if they are canonically 24 but look 3? There are many considerations, and this post also brings up that many age-play scenes are non-sexual in nature. I often like to just talk to characters, and the variation in ages gives the character depth. With depth comes the different knowledge about the world, different ways a speaking, etc. And isn’t that what being part of Wolfery all about?

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Saying “Oh I’m 24 but look like I’m 3 and baby talk ha ha it’s just a thing” is a meaningless distinction because it’s trying to rules lawyer making underage characters acceptable.

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There are cases where moderators would make judgement calls to determine if someone is is trying to break the rules while trying to present themselves as staying technically within expressed rules.

This is the case not only on Wolfery, but everyplace on the internet that has rules; and not just about age-related matters but every subject. When people try to do an “This X really isn’t X, it’s Y! And you don’t specifically prohibit Y!” then people in charge have to make a judgement call. Usually most services have rules that are expansive enough to apply in situations that are not specifically listed as problems, because people will always come up with new Y.

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Hey! I’ll have you know my character’s persistently youthful appearance is the result of a purely natural mutation — but I digress. :smirk_cat:

Underage characters should be . . . I don’t want to say accepted, but tolerable? As touched on by the OP, they’re often used for play unrelated to the concerns raised, and are part of the furry community that Wolfery serves (e.g. I glanced on WikiFur’s front page a day or so ago and the first event was Babyfur Con).

‘Comfort’ issues do exist, and I don’t want to trivialise them. As noted above, the character list – a means of exposure neither party can avoid by being elsewhere – may be part of the issue. I’d be glad for my contribution to the ‘tinkering fund’ to go into related improvements (though I know that’s not quite how it works).

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